Interviews
Full Arise TV interview: Vested interests resisting a ‘New Nigeria’ – Obi *2023, presidential polls, INEC’s worst
Peter Obi, presidential candidate of the Labour Party (LP), was the guest of The Morning Show, a breakfast programme on Arise Television, on Monday, where he had a robust engagement with his hosts. He answered many questions surrounding the election which held on February 25, which he insists he won. He pledged to use every legal means to prove that he won and would definitely recover the mandate, though he acknowledged that it would not be easy.
He not only picked so many loopholes in the election, but maintained that those asking him not to go to court under the guise that whatever happened was the wish of God, had missed the mark, because God was not known to support injustice, and therefore would never allow a rigged election. Excerpts:
How is it going? How do you assess your journey so far and what are you saying to your supporters and Nigerians, many of whom are disappointed by the conduct of the process?
Well, my first reaction is to say, thank you for inviting me and being there for Nigerians. First is to thank God Almighty for keeping Nigeria, protecting it and blessing it. I’m thanking the good people of Nigeria for their interest and participation in trying to build a new Nigeria. The journey so far has been very tough, but that is what is expected. It’s difficult because we’re trying to change what is there that has kept us where we are. So, it’s going to be difficult.
If you look at the last election, it’s probably the worst election in this republic, considering the 2022 electoral act, which was meant to improve our overall election process and the continued and consistent promises of the INEC Chairman that this is going to be the best thing that will ever happen to Nigeria.
You could see it in all the editorials in all the international newspapers – The Financial Times, Economist, World Street Journal and everybody, including Chatham House where the Chairman was. He has questioned the rating of the country. For me in particular, it is one of sadness that 63 after Nigerian independence, we can’t conduct a simple election, talkless of any other thing – just election despite all the promises.
And it’s not as if we’re too big. The world’s biggest democracy, India today has about 900million registered voters. In the last election, 67 per cent participated – over 600million, which compared to our 25million is 25 times our size. Yet the infraction was less than five per cent. In our own, the opposite is the case.
However, my appeal to Nigerians, to my Obidient family is to remain calm and remain prayerful for our country Nigeria. We have no other country except this one and we will go through all legal means to bring a new Nigeria, where everybody will be happy and proud to say, I’m a Nigerian.
But some clergymen and influential Nigerians are saying that you should not go to court, that the outcome is the way God wants it. What do you say?
Well, I’m very respectful to prominent Nigerians, especially church leaders, traditional rulers and all of them. And I think that they should be respected for what they represent in our society. But I disagree with them. What they are actually preaching is the problem with Nigeria. The problem of Nigeria is accepting wrongdoing, accepting what is unacceptable. That is using God’s name in vain. that’s not what God says. God says do not use my name in vain. So, what they’re saying is not God’s wish. It’s not God’s plan for Nigeria. So, why don’t we accept that the 133million Nigerians who are poor is God’s wish? Why don’t we accept that 95million Nigerians living in abject poverty is God’s wish? Is it God’s wish that we don’t have constant electricity? Is it God’s wish that our children are kidnapped, is it God’s wish that we have collapsed primary health care leaving us to be the country with the highest infant mortality. Is it that everything that is happening is God’s wish? That’s not what God says.
No! God’s wish is when you do the right thing and in the end it is done. This election is predicated and planned and we had clear laws about the conduct of the election. If it was followed, if the results were uploaded from the polling units, to the server and everything, I won’t be here. I won’t be talking about it. It would have been concluded in a matter of hours without anybody arguing about it. But it is not God’s wish that INEC should do the wrong thing. It is not God’s wish that you go and rob a train and go and start sharing money. This is what is killing the country. People come here, take public money and then go and give it to the churches and traditional rulers and they say it’s God’s wish and start giving them titles in the churches. That’s what we’re fighting. That’s what we’re trying to stop. We want God’s wish to be truly God’s wish. That’s when we do the right things and God gives his blessing.
What do you tell the young ones growing up? That it is God’s wish that you steal, that it is God’s wish that you conduct a wrong election? Tell me the difference between those of us who are doing this and the armed robbers. What is the difference between us and the train robbers? Let’s be sincere with ourselves. That’s why it’s God’s wish that somebody came out to say he knew a governor who kept N22billion and nobody is talking about him, but we’re stopping young people who have laptops and questioning them and calling them names. That’s not God’s wish. God wishes us something better. What I know is God is wishing us to do the right thing so that we start building a better country for our children.
We hear that INEC is not allowing you to inspect materials used in the election. What is going to be your next step?
You know, INEC is a public institution sustained by taxpayers money, including you and me. I believe in the laws of our public institutions. If there is anything, they should be open, because they conducted the election. That’s what happens everywhere. If you do something and people are not satisfied, it is for you to open up yourself. This is not the first time I’ll be going to court with INEC. Since 2003, I’d had to challenge INEC results. Don’t forget that I was the first governor in this country to come through the process of court. Throughout these three years, I was in court with INEC giving me access to whatever materials they used to conduct the election. You’ve conducted the election, you’ve announced or declared the winner. I’m only asking, can I have access to the documents and materials you used to arrive at that. I’m not asking you to change what you said.
Remember, as I used to tell people, I’m not challenging who they declared or the outcome, I’m challenging the process with which they arrived at their declaration. Unless we do that, we’re not going to stop the rascality we witnessed during that election. The process through which people come into office is for me, far more fundamental than what they do thereafter.
There’s a process of doing things. There’s a process of arriving at any destination. Like I said before, if you’re going to answer Your Excellency, the process of coming to that position, must be excellent. If you’re going to be bishop, there’s a process of being a bishop. You can’t answer a Doctor if you’ve no PhD. Even if it is conferred on you, you must have done something to merit it and there must be a process. So, the proccess is important.
So, what are you going to do?
Well, we’ll go back to the court to say what you granted, these people are not obeying. We’re not going to be lawless. We’re going to do everything through the law. Whatever we’re going to do will be for the interest of the country. But they’ll give us access, because they pronounced declared somebody. So, we must have access to the process with which they made that declaration.
Governor Nyesom Wike, said you’re the hero of that election, because you stopped Atiku Abubakar from winning in his traditional areas and paved the way for APC to win. Festus Keyamo, APC campaign spokesman, said that you’re role stopped in making Tinubu President and Reno Omokri, accused you of massive rigging in the South East, because he couldn’t understand how you could score 97 per cent in Anambra. Even Atiku acknowledged that you took most of his votes from his traditional areas. What is your response to all these?
Well, my first reaction generally is that even the declared winner did not win. He may have been declared by whatever means, but he has not won, because to win is to win the people. Democracy is government of the people by the people for the people. That means, if you must win, you must win the people. But if you have not won the people, you’ve not won. And I can tell you that in the last election, the declared person did not win. However, the rascality is what we’re challenging. On the various comments, let me talk about the issue of Reno. Ordinarily, I won’t comment on anything he says, because I only reply presidential candidates and not spokespersons, because they’re not contesting.
But since it is something that I’ve never participated or been part of, I have to reply it. I’ve never and I’ll ask anybody to add one vote for me that doesn’t rightfully belong to me. I haven’t paid anybody to rig election for me. Go all over Nigeria to ask anybody in INEC and the so-called EOs, Resident Electoral Commissioners and all of them whether any of them has met Peter Obi, saying do this. Go and ask the police or army to say do this. Never! They’re referees. It’s their job, and they should do their job. The issue of where I got 97 per cent is in Anambra State. Reno Omokri forgot that in 2019, go and check the records, where the PDP had the highest votes, was in Anambra State. That was when I was Vice Presidential candidate to Atiku. Our votes in Anambra State was almost 96 per cent. That’s where the PDP got the highest votes, because I was on that ballot and they know me.
I live in Onitsha. If you want to know how I got 97 per cent, come and go with me to Anambra State with me. I don’t need police. When I come out, you’ll see the reactions of the people. In fact, I’m actually surprised that I didn’t get up to 100 per cent in Anambra. I’m telling you because I don’t know who would be voting against me in Anambra State. In the South East, it’s a similar situation. People know me, people know what I stand for, people know I’ve kept to my promises. People know that I’ve kept to what I’ve said. It’s a simple thing. It’s like people going about and saying he got votes in Lagos because of the Igbo. How many Igbo live in Lagos?
I got more votes in Lagos from indigenes than from those you can call visitors. Are the Igbo in Nasarawa, are the Igbo in Plateau, are the Igbo in Abuja? In Rivers, where you know that the governor came out against me, I say if they leave the votes of Rivers to be counted, I won. I had more than 50 per cent of the votes in Rivers and the other two parties were sharing the other. That I won in Aso Rock, will you say it’s rigging? Which machinery did I have to rig? I had no councillor, I had no local government chairman, I don’t even know any DPO. So, which machinery will I use? They’re the ones who have belief in this. What they’re doing is what I’m trying to change.
How are you going to leverage on the momentum built by the Obidient movement? How are you galvanising this to help those vying for governorship on March 18 and what is this reason for renaming BVAS from Bimodal Voter Accreditation System to Basic Values Acceptable to Society?
Let me start from the Obidient Movement. Because Nigerian politics have largely been transactional, when we were starting this, many people didn’t believe in what we’re about to do. The consequence was that we didn’t have candidates for governorship in most of the states, because in a transactional thing, people like to be where things are being shared. So, nobody believed that a political party without councillor, or local government chairman can come up and become something. So, we didn’t have in most places, candidates. In a few places we’re able to have candidates, they’re first class candidates. I believe and I support them and I believe that they should be supported by the Obidient family and the people because I believe they’ll do good jobs.
Take GRV (Gbadebo Rhodes-Vivour) – young man, excellent background – you can’t have somebody who has a degree from MIT. So, these are the qualities we have.
In some places, we’re going to work with some good candidates, because there are some states where we don’t have candidates. In the South East for instance, we only have candidates in two states. We don’t have in Ebonyi. In the North we have in Plateau, and we don’t have in Zamfara. So, there are few places we’re asking our people to support other candidates and where we’re going to have partnership, like in Cross River State, where we’re supporting the candidate running under the PDP, we support him because he’s an excellent candidate.
So, for me, it’s about having competent, credible people having integrity with track-records that can do well. It’s not just about saying it must be Labour Party always. Where we think we have good people, we support them and we’re supporting them. Where we think we have somebody better, we give our support. The same thing is what I preach to the people. Don’t say if it it’s not Labour you won’t support. With time, we’re going to build this institution and ensure that everything we’re going to do is the right thing. But it’s not going to be overnight. So, for me, in states where we have good candidates, we’re going to support them.
We’re going to make sure it works and where we don’t , we’ll be honest to the people, because what we’re trying to do is to build a new politics that will thrive on character, capacity, competence and compassion and telling the people the truth always. That’s why I got 97 per cent in Anambra State, because everything I said, I did and where it was impossible, I told the people the truth and not telling them lies. I accounted for their money.
When I said BVAS should be Basic Values Acceptable to the Society, what makes a good society? It is values. The values they accept, the values they tolerate is what builds the people. Just like you’ve said that the Bishops are saying it’s God’s wish, how could God wish that the people are poor? How could God wish that Nigeria is in darkness? No! It’s not God’s wish.
Has Tinubu called you? What’s your reaction to the ethnic coloration the campaigns are taking in Lagos and what do you say to those arguing that your candidate in Lagos is too young, having just turned 40?
I’ve always said that the APC presidential candidate is an elder brother. I could even call him a father and I have a lot of respect for him in everything. I’ve not been opportune to speak with him. I don’t have any issue with him. I respect him and I’ll continue to do so. I’m only challenging the process through which he was declared winner, because that process is wrong and that process must be corrected. I believe that things must be done rightly. We must follow the rule of law, we must have a society where things are done in a decent and organised manner. We must try to build this new nation for the world to respect us.
What you see as ethnic strife is just people trying to hide under what doesn’t exist to cause confusion. The votes I got in Lagos, as I said earlier, cut across everybody in Lagos from Yoruba, Igbo, Hausa, Ijaw and all the tribes that live in Lagos voted for me. I can tell you that a lot of people who I know that are thoroughly Yoruba who are supporting me. In 2003, Obasanjo got over 90 per cent of the votes in the entire South East despite that our own revered leader, Ojukwu was contesting. Nobody shouted at anybody. Nobody said I won’t do business with the Yoruba or with Northerners or with anybody. He failed in Yorubaland, but we gave him more votes in the South East even when our own revered leader was contesting. Nobody quarrelled with it. We have Yoruba people who live in the East. Don’t think that it is only here that the Yoruba live. I can tell you that in Onitsha where I live, two prominent people who I deal with are completely from the South West. They’re there and nobody is harassing them. They’re doing their businesses and voting for whoever they want. I can go back to history. In 2011, we voted for Jonathan and he got more votes in the South East than he got in the South South. When Abiola contested election, he had more votes from the South East, even when his Vice Presidential candidate, Kingibe, was a Muslim from the North – when Tofa had an Igbo man as the Vice Presidential candidate, a respected Igbo man, yet, Abiola won.
When that election was eventually annulled, go and check those who lost more in NADECO. It is the Igbo. Ralph Obioha’s businesses were ruined. Go and check it. So, when people bring what doesn’t exist, we should be careful. So, who were the people who voted for me in Abuja? We’re they only Igbo? Nobody got 25 per cent in Abuja out of the two parties. Is it the Igbo who voted for me in Plateau? Do the Igbo occupy Nasarawa? The governor of Nasarawa said I won’t get 10 per cent of the votes in Nasarawa, and the governor of Kaduna State said I won’t get 2,000 votes in Kaduna and I got 300,000 votes. So, I’m appealing to people, in the interest of Nigeria. Today, we have a Pakistani as Mayor of London and Indian as Prime Minister. And they’re doing far better than we’re doing. In this place that is not even working, we’re still trying to divide ourselves. That’s what we’re trying to remove. It’s this rascality, it’s this structure that we’re trying to remove that brings this hatred, which we must remove from the system so that the system can work.
When people can no longer compete on character, competence, compassion and capacity, they resort to religious and ethnicity. They were shouting, Peter campaigned on religion, but they’re the ones doing it. I’ve never told anyone to vote for me based on this. I said it, don’t vote for Peter Obi because he’s from the South East.
On issue of someone being too young, it’s laughable. We should actually stop people who are too old from contesting. If I had my way, if we can retire our bishops at 70, our professors at 70, Supreme Court justices at 70, it’s time will peg the age in this our politics so that people should also retire, because the reason why we say at 70-75 people should go and rest, is because it’s these people that are bringing this confusion.
Age-40 is the age where people became Presidents in America, the world’s biggest economy – $25trillion and we just $400billion. And you’re talking about age. I think he has the right age, the right background, the right education.
Your party, despite not having a structure has made inroads into the National Assembly with six Senators and 34 House of Representatives members. How do you comment on that? Secondly, this issue of INEC not allowing you to inspect materials, Yusuf Tanko, your campaign spokesman, has served notice that the only option is to picket INEC offices nationwide in a peaceful protest. Why not go back to court to press for contempt against INEC?
We’ll apply both. We have a situation where you cannot imagine. INEC is an institution backed by law, the court has given an order and they’re not obeying it, how then do we start to build a nation. The most important ingredient, what makes a nation is the rule of law. I said it when I was campaigning that we must govern by the rule of law. The biggest contributor to the western economy today in terms of the growth is the intangible assets, called rule of law. The reason why people want to live America and Britain is not because things that happen here don’t happen there. But because if it happens you can seek redress in court and it will be obeyed. If you call police, they’ll respond. Nothing else. Law and order is what we’re working here. We must live in a society that is organised. Today, with the way Nigeria is and considering how bad things are economically what the world expected of us in 2023 – there was so much expectations – was to have free, fair and credible elections, where the new government will come to start – people talk about low-hanging fruits. The number one low-hanging fruit here is to start governing by rule of law. If you start it, you start changing this country. And that I’m committed to. And I’ll urge INEC to please help the country. The image of the country – our strategic importance in the comity of nations is being put to question by all this rascality.
National Assembly?
For me I thank God that we’re able to get the number of seats. I hosted the candidates after they received their certificates and urged them to know that we’re committed to a new Nigeria and we must do things differently. We must support what is right. We must work out everything and I’m sure they will do that. There are things we need to do going forward for the Labour Party. For them, it is to build a democratic institute that will be able to teach people what their job is all about and what they’re expected to do. It is not just that you’ve won election and it’s now time for you to be part of the confusion that exists and go transactional. We now want to leverage and we’re talking with different organisations, different countries that can help us build a proper democratic institution that will teach our people, including me what governance is all about.
Critics have question why you accept the NASS results without that of the presidential since both of them took place at the same time. So, what’s the difference? Again, in Enugu, there seems a confusion about who the Labour Party is supporting between Frank Nweke of APGA and Chijioke Edeoga of LP. Who are you supporting?
Let me start from Enugu. The issue of Enugu is because Aisha Yusuf, tweeted in support of Frank Nweke. Let me clarify. The Obidient Movement are not necessarily LP members. There are so many people in the Obidient Movement, who have nothing to do with Labour Party. Somebody like Aisha Yusuf is not a member of the Labour Party. We even have what is called The Big Tent, where many groups gather, which has all the groups who supporting me today, as a presidential candidate, who have nothing to do with the Labour Party.
These people believe I can do this job. So, they have a right to choose who to support. But as a Labour Party, which I’m a member – don’t forget that the party is far more supreme than any individual – Labour Party, has chosen Chijioke Edeoga. He is our candidate. And that I stand with, because I’m a member of the Labour Party. Members of the Obidient family have their own choices and I can’t question them. So, that’s the difference.
On the issue of the National Assembly elections, remember INEC said the House of Representative was going through and the Senate was going, but it’s only the Presidential. So, by that, they’ve defined a process. They have accepted a process. Go and read your law. In the other two, they followed that process and in this one, something happened. They gave an excuse, which shouldn’t be, because they know what they were doing.
Is LP collaborating with PDP in Lagos? Are you talking with Atiku to pursue this case together and what happens if even declared winner by the Supreme Court and the order is not obeyed?
Well, there is no partnership between Labour Party and the PDP. Both of us are challenging a process that is wrong. That is acceptable. The process was wrong and we’re all challenging it because we’re all participants. It’s like a woman that was raped and she goes to court and several other women come out. They’re not acting jointly, but they’re victims of the same manner.
But both of you are claiming to have won the election at the same time. How’s that possible?
There’s no problem. That is why we want to check the process. It is that process that we say who actually received the highest number of rightful votes cast in that election and the spread. So, if we do the right things, what we’re claiming now is because of the confusion that was deliberately created by INEC. If they had done the right thing, we won’t be here. Nobody will be arguing. Like I said, I have my respect for Atiku. My respect for him remains for as long as I live. He’s a respected elder brother.
But have you been speaking to him?
Of Course! Not as regards this election, but on any other issue. We’ve always remained close. On issue of Nigeria, we’re two different candidates. I’m committed to a new Nigeria, committed to doing things differently. But my commitment does not in any way affect my respect for him or Tinubu. I’ll remain respectful to them.
On issue of Lagos, the Labour candidate in Lagos, remains the best candidate. He’s true and thorough Lagosian, from a family that is well-known. His educational background, his age and everything gives the impression that he has the right thing and the right energy and I support him 100 per cent. So, also do I for any other Labour candidate that is chosen through the right process.
I told you here that we don’t have candidates everywhere. We have may be five-six or seven candidates and I support them. Wherever you see me not supporting a candidate, Labour Party, especially our chairman, must have worked with them in partnership or somehow to be able to achieve in the last election and Labour as an institution is bigger than me. And I respect and take directives from the Chairman, because we want to build institutions, so that it will work. Even if I’m the leader, I still believe in the institutions. And we must respect the institutions.
That’s part of the rascalities that I saw in other parties that made them not to work, because people think they’re bigger than the party. I’m not bigger than the Labour Party. Labour Party remains bigger. Whatever directives they give I obey. So, I assure you, we’ll support GRV and I can tell you that he’s a fantastic candidate.
Your critics say at 63, if you’re harping on youthful age, you’re not qualified. They even say elsewhere, the use age for any job is discriminatory, just like religion and gender. What do you say to the allegation that using age against your co-contestants is unacceptable?
But I wasn’t talking about myself when I talked about age. I was only replying that somebody who is 40 is too young to govern Lagos. That is when I said that people who are talking about age that people above 75 should actually retire. But, let’s not compare age in the US and here. In the US, life expectancy is 72.5 years. Here in Nigeria it is 54. So, at 70, you’ve actually passed 16 years and should have gone. And some of these people saying this have contributed to why people are dying and why we have high rate of infant mortality. So, let them not compare. It’s not the same thing. Some who is 80 in America is different from someone who is 80 here. So, you cannot compare the two of them.
Number two, I’m not 63 years old. May be right, may be wrong, my affidavit letter, which I still carry around me, which my mother gave me in 1970, said I was born on July 19, 1961. If anything is wrong, I hold my mother responsible. But she’s been a wonderful woman. I don’t have the privilege of my father giving me. So, if you follow it, I’m still going to be 62 in this July. So, I’m not comparing age. But I assure you of my commitment.
They keep saying we need experience of age. But the aged and the old have not used that experience. But rather what they do is claiming experience in failure. They’ve not used it to progress the place. Rather, they tell you that I’ve been doing this for 30 years. So what? The place failed. How can you claim experience in failure? If you’ve been doing this for 30 years and we’re in this mess, then actually, you should cover your face in shame. It’s not about saying that I’ve been around for 20 years and therefore it’s my entitlement. No, you have to claim entitlement where things are progressing, where things are going well. That’s what it should be.
People are raising the issue of age against Gbadebo, because they say it is linked to political experience. Yes, MIT, is an Ivy League school, but they say if you have to govern a diverse state like Lagos, you’d need more that an MIT certificate. What do you say to that?
Which experience? When I was campaigning to be the governor of Anambra State, I’d never worked in government, I never had anything to do with government. I was faced with the same thing. I was his age. I started campaigning in 2001. I was just 39. By the time the election took place, I was 41-42.
So, I was that age. And it was the same, because people were saying who’s he? He has never done this, he’s never worked in government before. The only experience they can claim is the experience of corruption, the experience of stealing, experience of doing the wrong thing. In fact it is good sometime for you to bring in someone who didn’t have that experience so that he can clean up the mess.
I came in without that experience and when they wanted to teach me that experience, I told them they’re wrong. I recall asking my people why Anambra State will have a lodge in Abuja and they told me because every state has it. I told them you can’t because the governor doesn’t live in Abuja. So, shut it down. Why will this one happen? Why will the governor have 18 guest houses and they said because he’d have guests. These were all the things we shut down that gave us the money to do the work. So, the experience they have is what we’re against. That’s the structure they claim they have.
What you see us challenging now is the structure they’re telling you that we’ve no structure. As far as I’m concerned, he’s at the right age, the right energy, the right educational background. Whatever there is that you think is lacking, because of his exposure and all that, he’ll be able read it. The job of a leader is always listening and learning. And I did that and we succeeded. Listen to the people and do what they want. Prove your integrity and look at the background where you’re coming from. Remember that if you steal, it will show in the alumni record of MIT that you’re now a thief.
What is now your relationship with Governor Soludo, who said you’d win only two states? What do you say to him if he’s watching now that you won more than two states and counting?
First is that Soludo remains my respected elder brother. He’s also my Governor. So, I respect him always. An I remember him in prayers that he governs the state very well because at the end of the day, I leave in Onitsha. If anything goes wrong, it affects me directly. So, I always remember him in my prayers and I’ll always wish him well. We never had any argument. His political understanding or stand, does not in any way affect me. We’re family and we’ll remain family. Like I said when he said it, he’s a professor and I’m trader. So, two of us have different ways of reasoning. You can’t expect a trader to be thinking like a professor neither would you expect a professor to be thinking like a trader. that’s where we are. So, there’s no problem between the two of us. We’re friends and we’ll remain so.
Talking about the issue of age, I’m not against age. If you’re 70 and you’re healthy and everything – I only said age should not be used to talk about inexperience. I’m also saying age at a certain time can be used to say you can no longer physically do certain things because the job requires physical energy. I can tell you, ask those who know me well, I used to travel to London and back here three times in a week. I arrive in the morning and go back in the evening, arrive in the morning, go back in the evening. Today, it’s not possible. I was doing it in my 30s up to 40s. Today, I needed to break it. So, if I get to 70, it won’t be the same thing. I went to not just 36 states when I was campaigning, but to over 100 places. If I go to your state, I’ll visit to another place. I went to Oyo and to Ogbomoso, I went to Ibadan. I went to Adamawa, I was in Numa and I was in Mubi. I was in Maiduguri and I was in Biu. I went to Edo, and I was in Auchi and Uromi. It was possible, but the other candidates couldn’t do it. It was impossible. It had to do with physical energy. It’s important.
There’s something circulating right now that you were a member of the Association for Better Nigeria that supported the annulment of the June 12, 1993 election. Were you with Arthur Nzeribe who led that movement at that time?
1993, I lived in England and I had nothing to do with politics. In 1993, my business was between here and the UK. I was living in England with my family. If you want to know, my son was born in 1993 December. You can go and check his birth certificate. My daughter also. They were in the primary school in England. How could I have little children who were in primary school in England and be in Nigeria doing Better Nigeria, while my wife lived there. So, who would I leave them for? People said a lot of things. I was never involved in politics and never even voted as at that time.
I was actually a businessman, contributing to building a better Nigeria, involved in supporting Nigerians in different places. Just like I said, I supported Abiola when he contested because I was listening to what he was doing. And I was doing so, in my capacity in different. And when it failed and they started NADECO, there were other people who were involved in it like Ralph Obioha or the late Ndubuisi Kanu, who would tell you that they knew me and other things. I all, I say there shouldn’t be any tension, people should go out and vote for Gbadebo. He’s the right candidate. And they should go out and vote other candidates, even where I mentioned that if you have competent people in other parties, vote for them.
Sule Lamido, for Secretary of the defunct Social Democratic Party (SDP), and former Governor of Jigawa State, is a member of the coalition of politicians intent on removing President Bola Tinubu from power in 2027.
In this interview, with Vanguard, he spoke on myriad of issues including the sealing of the Peoples Democratic Party Secretariat in Abuja and his apparent subversive activities to undermine the party as well as the attempt by the President to turn Nigeria into a one-party state, which he said would not augur well for either the President or the country, submitting that instead of playing God, he should thank God for climbing to the highest office in the land. Excerpts:
A lot has been happening in your party the PDP in recent days – the most notable being the sealing of the party’s National Secretariat a few hours before the much-awaited National Executive Council meeting was to be held. It’s an iconic building, and ironically, the action was carried out by a prominent member of your party. Was this something you would have envisaged?
Well, what can one say? This is just the drama of Nigerian politics. Here is someone who was honoured by the PDP, brought into relevance by the PDP, and now turns around to fight the very party that made him. Nyesom Wike is, quite frankly, a disaster. What he has done is un-African and un-Nigerian.
I don’t understand how someone, simply because of his ambition, can take things so personally and act so destructively. There used to be a party culture that prioritised collective good – something altruistic – but that seems lost now.
To seal the PDP secretariat – a party that produced you, nurtured you – no matter your grievances, no matter your bitterness, it’s like destroying your own home. He claims he financed the party. But is it wrong for a son to take care of his mother? Does it now mean the mother must submit to the son and take orders from him simply because he’s providing her clothing?
Wike is thinking in a very warped way. He lacks the values and traditions that define our political culture. I’m glad, however, that President Tinubu intervened. The office was reopened by his order. The very man Wike is trying to please by destroying his own political family is the one saying, “No, you can’t do that.” So, in a way, Tinubu has exposed him – showing that Wike is unreliable, without tradition, without pedigree. And now, Tinubu too may likely abandon him very soon.
Part of your book narrated your encounter with the late Arthur Nzeribe, a member of the defunct Social Democratic Party during your time as National Secretary. He was the promoter of the Association for Better Nigeria which worked at cross purposes with the party. The party found a way to tame him. Do you think that tradition – of putting party first – has been lost in the PDP?
You’re right. During our time, the party was supreme. It held full authority, and everyone respected it, whether in the North, South, East, or West. Anyone – no matter how influential – who crossed the party line would be sanctioned.
Today, people openly working against the PDP are still being tolerated. Someone like Wike, who claims to love the PDP but is undermining it, should be expelled by the NWC. Why hasn’t that happened?
Look at the Board of Trustees (BoT). People like Samuel Ortom, who declared support for Tinubu in 2023, are still members. That’s why I’ve said I will not attend any PDP meeting unless Wike is expelled and people like Ortom are removed from the BOT. I remain a PDP member, but I will not participate in party functions or answer calls to meetings while these individuals remain in leadership.
How can I sit with someone like Ortom in the BOT to discuss the future of PDP? Or someone like Anyanwu, who is rejected in his zone and is now being imposed by another zone? These are impostors.
Some have argued that the FCT Minister’s attitude towards the party is a direct consequence of how he was treated during the last Presidential primary. Would you say the PDP has regrets for refusing to pick Wike as Vice-presidential candidate?
The issue was never personal. The PDP is a very organic, well-structured, and organized party. It can win elections with whoever it fields, as long as the party makes that decision collectively. When you try to bend the will of an entire party to appease one individual, you lose sight of the broader input and value of the party system.
It’s not about who came or shouted the loudest; it’s about identifying someone who fits the consensus for leadership-someone with the right temperament and comportment. The office of the President and Vice President is too important to be determined by emotions. Wike, at that time, was not suitable. He was too temperamental, too uncouth, and lacked the cultural understanding and maturity required for that role.
Leading Nigeria requires an appreciation of its cultural diversity and an ability to carry the national spirit. Wike might be a potential candidate for the future, but in 2023, Okowa was the better choice. He’s more disciplined, mature, and gentlemanly. He represents the values required for the office-understanding, pedigree, and a calm demeanour. Leadership is about character, not just personality.
One thing that worked for the PDP at the beginning was the presence of individuals who put Nigeria first and made sacrifices for the greater good. What changed? When did the decline we are witnessing today begin?
The decline began when people who didn’t understand the PDP’s values joined the party. They lacked the cultural grounding in sacrifice, collectivity, and the bigger picture. Some joined the party and started financing it, then acted as if they owned it. Take Wike, for instance-before PDP, he was virtually unknown. Whatever wealth he has now is thanks to the PDP.
It’s like a child bragging that he feeds his father. Before that child was born, the father had been feeding him. That’s life. When children grow, they care for their parents. But when a child boasts about that care, it becomes problematic. Wike lacks the temperament and leadership traits we need.
Frankly, Wike should be expelled from the PDP. He has committed several anti-party offences-abusing everyone, threatening havoc in Bauchi, and fighting other party members. He’s destructive. Without the PDP, he wouldn’t be where he is today. That’s why I caution Tinubu-he must be careful. People are beginning to see the danger in keeping Wike around. He may eventually turn on Tinubu too.
I’m glad Tinubu has started realising this and called him to order-especially after he closed a PDP office. That was a clear abuse of power. PDP has built Nigeria-three Presidents, several governors, and ministers-without PDP, Nigeria’s political history is incomplete. PDP restored, reconciled, and stabilized the country. Tinubu needs to understand this.
Within the PDP, there seems to be a culture of people leaving the party at critical moments, only to return and pick up tickets to contest elections. What are your thoughts on this sort of behaviour?
That behaviour stems from fundamental breaches in the party-dating back to 2014. These breaches created indiscipline and encouraged people to exit and return at will. For the party to move forward, the NWC must expel Wike and others like Ortom and the former governor of Edo, who are now professing loyalty to the APC. These individuals are undermining the party.
I’ve stopped attending party meetings. I still consider myself a PDP member, but I won’t sit in the same room with these characters.
Some believe Nigeria is drifting toward a one-party state. Do you share this fear? Is it possible?
If the ruling party is delivering excellent governance, then the popularity that follows is earned, and there’s no problem. But what we see is not natural political evolution-it’s state interference. The government is using public institutions and resources to destroy opposition parties.
PDP, ironically, is Tinubu’s insurance cover. If he destroys it, he weakens his future. A robust PDP helps stabilise Nigeria. Destroying the opposition puts democracy at risk and endangers his administration.
The presidential candidate of the Labour Party, Peter Obi, who incidentally was once a member of the PDP, recently accused the government of the day of orchestrating the crisis in both the LP and the PDP. Do you agree with him?
You don’t need a prophet to see it. The government is forcing and blackmailing people using agencies like EFCC. People are being pushed into the APC through threats and intimidation. It’s an abuse of state power.
If APC wants to compete fairly with PDP, fine. But the President is for all Nigerians-he shouldn’t use his office to suppress opposition. That’s dangerous-for democracy and him.
There’s talk of a northern coalition of opposition parties ahead of 2027. Do you see wisdom in that?
Yes, but it should not be a northern coalition. It should be a Nigerian coalition. The suffering in Nigeria is not limited to the North; the South is equally affected. So the effort must be national. Even if the initiative begins in the North, the objective should be to save Nigeria as a whole.
The PDP Governors’ Forum as well as party organs used to be a powerful force. But now, personal ambition seems to have weakened it. How do you think the party can be restored?
It’s not a crime to have ambition. That’s natural. But you must understand the context. From 1999 to 2014, the Nigerian presidency under PDP provided shelter and authority for governors and party members. That structure – what I call the “canopy” – is now gone. The leadership that should be steering the party, from the presidency or vice presidency, has also disappeared.
Without that umbrella of unity, everyone is on his own, that’s why the party feels fractured now.
Politics now was a bit different in the first and second republics. The party had greater control of its members and was largely obeyed. What do you think happened?
If you look at the politics of the Second Republic it was built on personalities. It was built on the character and personality traits of the party leader. For example, Chief Obafemi Awolowo of the UPN right from his days in the Action Group was a force to be reckoned with. He was somebody with a very strong moral background, a man with a strong character. Therefore members of his party knew they were following a leader. The same was the case with Malam Aminu Kano of the PRP. His followers saw in him an embodiment of all they wished for in a leader. Those parties were built on the philosophies espoused by their leaders. The PDP was created in the aftermath of the June 12 crisis. It was a product of a consensus. People from the UPN, the SDP, NPN were all in the PDP. They were there in the beginning. They came together to save the country from a particular problem which was June 12. They built that trust among Nigerians.
How can this trust be rebuilt and the party returned to the right path?
Let us follow the party’s rules, culture and traditions. Let us follow our rules and punish those who deserve punishment, those who have been causing us problems Wike and members of his G-5 kick them out of the party to restore our party’s dignity. You cannot make progress by dealing with a person who is running with the deer and hunting with the hound. Somebody who is in the PDP, working with Tinubu not even the APC is incomprehensible.
There have been concerns about the weakening of our institutions especially our courts when it comes to political issues. Do you share this view?
I feel the courts are now up and doing. They are trying to restore their dignity and character, because they have now said, on issues of party management, by their own rules and traditions, we have no business with it, simple. It is very clear; that the court has no business with the internal affairs of political parties. So, that is why if tomorrow, the party sacks Anyanwu, he is sacked because he can’t contest that decision in court based on this judgment. Those who have been causing unnecessary trouble should face the Disciplinary Committee and be sacked. Before now, such people rushed to court to stop the process but now the court has said no, we have no business with you, run your party according to your constitution. If the party sacks Anyanwu, Wike and co they are sacked! All that is required is the courage to do so that’s all.
What do you make of the recent political summit by the ruling APC and the endorsements for a second term for President Bola Tinubu?
They are panicking. You see, they are very panicky, and that is why they are using public institutions to coerce people into joining them. Look at Abuja now. It is nauseating, it is not up to two years out of four years of tenure, and you have posters of Tinubu all over the place. In Nigeria we have more serious issues they are yet to tackle but they are flooding our streets with posters and billboards.
They are not concerned with governance and providing services for the people who elected them but with fanfare. If I were Tinubu, I’d ask them to remove all those posters. I will order Wike. The sycophancy is too much, that is why I say by the time everybody is conquered they will have no one left to govern.
You are now by all definitions a statesman. What advice can you give the President?
My advice to Tinubu is this; he should remember that against all odds, against Afenifere, against Ohanaeze, against ACF, against Buhari, against everybody, God made him President of Nigeria. Therefore, let him go back to God and tell him, “I am very grateful that you made me President, if you don’t put me back, I thank you for making me President of Nigeria.
But then he is going all over the place to say I can take over your functions with my Wayo, with my wuru wuru and come back, you don’t play God.
Lateef Fagbemi (SAN) Attorney General of the Federation and Minister of Justice (AGF-MoJ), on Wednesday, pushed back on the barrage of attacks on President Bola Tinubu for declaring a State of Emergency on Rivers State.
The President’s pronouncement, saw the suspension of all the elected members of both the executive and legislature, including Siminalayi Fubara, the governor and Martin Amaewhule, Speaker of the House of Assembly, leading the camp of lawmakers loyal to Nyesom Wike, Minister of the Federal Capital Territory (FCT), the two major parties in the bitter political conflict that began in October 2023.
Against the backdrop of arguments by the critics of the President, who insisted that he had no powers to order the suspension of the democratic institution and others who claimed he showed manifest bias by not also including Wike in the punishment, Fagbemi argued that those raising the issues were actually wrong in their positions.
He spoke to reporters in Abuja, shortly after Tinubu swore in Ibok-Ete Ibas, former Chief of Naval Staff, as the Sole Administrator to take charge of affairs in the state. Excerpts:
Fagbemi:
It’s no longer news that the president of the nation, President Bola Ahmed Tinubu GCFR, yesterday, took the bull by the horns to do what was required of a statesman, a patriot and a head of State and commander in chief of the armed forces.
The events in Rivers State started long ago, and he tried to intervene many times. Apart from that, well-meaning Nigerians, leaders of thought, and concerned citizens have also attempted to settle the matter without any result. The President came out boldly yesterday to say the situation cannot be allowed to continue, a situation in which the critical economic life of the nation, what is giving lifeline to the nation to be, you know, criminally touched without any response from those who would ordinarily be expected to do so, cannot continue.
But don’t forget, the whole thing started or crystallised with the judgment of the Supreme Court that was handed down on the 28th day of February 2025 in which the Supreme Court, that’s the highest court in the land, made a categorical pronouncement after making very profound findings of breaches of the Constitution by the parties involved, particularly the governor of Rivers state, concluded that he was acting like a despot and that, as the situation is in Rivers State, there is no Government. These are very serious and very weighty allegations that only an irresponsible Head of State or leader will fold his arms and ignore.
As I said, he made a very bold decision. We were all there when he addressed the public and chronicled all the facts from Genesis to Revelation.
So, I’m here. If there is any question to be asked on that, then I will be able to respond. But before then, don’t forget that the judgment of the Supreme Court had been widely reported and published in the papers. So, the President was not a party to it, so the question of trying to influence anything would not arise. And by virtue of certain provisions of the Constitution, everybody has a duty to ensure that the judgment of the court is obeyed, particularly coming from the highest court in the land; there is no other person to appeal to. There is no other body to appeal to. It’s not subject to any further test of validity. As things are, we all have a duty, collectively and individually to ensure that we give maximum respect and obedience to the judgment of the Supreme Court.
So, gentlemen, I’m available to answer any questions, clarify, or make observations. Thank you.
Did the situation in Rivers State warrant the declaration of a state of emergency? Because some people say the President’s decision was hasty?
Let me start on a note of how we got to where we are today. How did it all start? That is about the genesis. We all know how we got there since 2023. Towards the end of 2023, things have not been going well to the extent that the governor took the law into his hands and demolished and brought down the House of Assembly. Don’t forget the role of the House of Assembly. They are the lawmakers. They are to consider the budget. They are to, you know, pass the budget. They are also to be approached in matters of appointment of commissioners for ratification and all other things. They are to do oversight functions. So, since that happened, things have not been the same at all.
In a community of 32, you expect that at least 15 or 16 people will be there to do the job. The governor, as I said, and it is no longer news, harboured three or four of the members, constituted them to the House of Assembly and gave them preferential treatment, and moved them to the Government House to perform legislative functions. This situation got to the court. There were about 10, 15, 16 cases, and at the end of the day, the Supreme Court came out and made very profound findings of breaches of the Constitution, mainly against the governor.
You see, you rise or fall based on what you took to court and what court decision is on it. The court came to the decision that the governor had long anticipated, wrongly, that he might be impeached, and because of that, he knew that the House of Assembly was a critical structure, or organ, so he brought down the House of Assembly. 14 months after that is as at yesterday, there was no effort to rebuild the House of Assembly.
The government stands on the tripod, the executive, the legislature, and the judiciary, and you have made the functioning of government impossible. It is not enough for the executive, to say, we are spending money, even the money you want to spend must have been appropriated for by the House of Assembly. These are some of the findings that the Supreme Court made. And at the end of the day, the Supreme Court said, or came to a decision, that the governor’s behaviour was like a despot, and that as the situation was, there was no government in Rivers. If there was no government in Rivers, what would we be looking for?
I’m so sorry for bringing in this issue. In the Bible, they asked Jesus Christ, are You the Son of God? And he said, Yes. Then others chorused, what further evidence do we need from this man? So, the stage is set, but no action was taken immediately in the expectation or hope that good sense will prevail, the governor would create an enabling environment, and that the House of Assembly too would be reasonable enough to ensure that the people of Rivers got a return for their voting of members of the House of Assembly and the governor and other elected officials to enjoy dividends of democracy. We are in a democracy.
So then, there was what I will call telegraphing of the militants, I will say, by the governor. And I said so when he beckoned to them that, oh, he will let them know when it was time to act, to the militant. Let us say it was wrong. Did he come out to disown them? The answer is no. And a week after, they swung into action; you see or witness the vandalisation of oil pipelines.
Don’t also forget that before now, that is when this government came into office. Nigeria was producing about 900,000 barrels of oil a day. With the efforts and all the ingenuity that the President had, he ensured that the production rose to about 1.5 million barrels per day. That’s about 45 per cent increase; governors were smiling home at the end of the month with about 60 per cent increase in their take home to their various states. Then somebody rose or encouraged or became inactive when he was supposed to act. There was not a word dissuading the militants who issued this threat.
In today’s Nigeria, maybe with the efforts of Mr President, Agriculture will come in. But as at today, we still rely largely on oil. Anyone who touches these pipelines is not only the enemy of Rivers but he is also the enemy of Nigeria. All Nigerians in all 36 states, share in what comes in from the production of this oil. And I believe that the decision of Mr President is anchored on the decision of the Supreme Court.
The second one is the inability of those involved, both the House of Assembly and the governor, to create an enabling environment for the people of Rivers to enjoy the dividends of democracy. The third part of the series is about the security situation in that place. You know, if the President had waited maybe a day longer, only God knows what would have followed. And as a result, he came out to say, I am not only the Head of State, I’m Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, and declared a state of emergency.
What would you say to those who said Mr President’s decision was hasty?
I will ask rather rhetorically, when do you think he should have acted? When everything has collapsed? No, the law envisages that you come in when there is imminent danger to the security of lives and property. People were killing themselves. It’s no longer news. It’s not a question of making up the story. We all read papers every day. Those who live there are living in fear. So, there is undoubtedly the need to come in. We have about two years into the administration in the state, if he didn’t come in now, when do you think he should come in? Is it when everything has been destroyed? I don’t think so.
The President has acted timeously. He had allowed all the people involved, the parties involved, to make amends. Before then, he assembled them, he tried to mediate. Some said he had no constitutional power after agreeing. And what they agreed to at the meeting were not implemented. So, to answer your question, I am certain that the President has acted timeously after giving them enough rope, and as the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, it was a tough decision for him to make.
It doesn’t present anybody with joy, to disrupt the flow of democracy or practice of it. But the Constitution itself envisages that there may be this type of situation, and that was why it is provided in section 305 of the Constitution that extraordinary situations might arise. This is one of such extraordinary situations.
People have expressed divergent views about the suspension of the governor, his deputy and members of the State House of Assembly. How legal would you say the suspension was?
You see, you decide each case on its own peculiar facts and circumstances. Who are the people involved? Who are the parties involved in this saga? They are the governor and members of the House of Assembly. So, who else should have been affected? I’ve heard this funny argument. I’m sorry for saying it. It’s funny because it doesn’t make any sense to me. Oh, that the President should have just gone there to secure the pipelines and then come back when some people are there encouraging vandals to come in. The action of the President, you know what happened, is the effect of a fundamental cause, and you cannot be treating the effect to cure the cause. What was the cause? The governor and members of the House of Assembly. So, you have to behave responsibly, and you must have the gut. If it happens again, I will encourage Mr President to do the same, maybe this time with even greater vigour and vitality. So, the question of separating, treating, or giving preferential treatment to anybody does not arise. If you give preferential treatment to anybody, you are giving preferential treatment to hooliganism. Just call a spade a spade.
This is where I believe that we should put up our patriotism cap. It shouldn’t be about individuals. It should not be about anybody. It should be about the entity called Nigeria, but in this case, it is Rivers State. So, it is Rivers State’s turn today, it can be anybody’s turn tomorrow. Let the signal be clearly sent for those who want to foment trouble, who want to make the practice of democracy and enjoyment of democracy a mirage, to think twice.
So, I will answer the question by saying, I return resounding no to the quest that the governor and deputy governor should have been spared, or the members of the House of Assembly, they were all in it.
Would you say, that the declaration of state of emergency in Rivers State was some compromise to save the governor and his deputy from impeachment?
It appears so. Don’t forget, I think yesterday (Tuesday), there was a notice of impeachment from the House of Assembly. If that impeachment had been allowed to take its full course, then the governor would have lost wholly and entirely. So, in a way, if you say it’s a compromise, I will agree that instead of allowing the impeachment process to continue, and which in the end, would have seen both the Governor and the deputy governor out of office and would have been out for the entirety of the four-year term with the remainder of what it we have. We are one year, I think about nine months now, leaving a balance of two years and three months. So, if normalcy returns, Fubara Sim may come in. But for now, it could be a compromise. I will agree.
What do you say to people who feel the President has a stake in this and he appears to be playing the playbook of the minister of the FCT, Wike, who appears to be the one that is winning in all this?
About the playbook of the Honourable Minister of Federal Capital Territory. You see, there are occasions especially when it comes to national issues, we have to come out plainly and sincerely. Where do you put the Minister of FCT in this case? Was he the one who asked for the demolition of the House of Assembly? Was he the one who said the governor should not present his budget to the House of Assembly? Was he the one who advised the governor not to go through the House of Assembly to ratify the commissioner-nominees? I don’t know. Because if you want to look at a case, you look at the facts presented. The Supreme Court made these critical findings. The FCT minister did not feature. Whatever the situation, assuming he featured, he would have featured, maybe on the side of the legislators. But you have is: let everybody go home for the first six months. So, I don’t see his hands here in what we have.
Look, I will encourage you to read that judgment of the Supreme Court. There were about 11 of 12 findings against the governor. What sentiments are we bringing on this matter? There isn’t any sentiment. If the National Assembly feels that the President has not done well, then you won’t have the two-thirds majority required to validate his action. Certainly, you know it is like a situation in which they veto, veto usually is on the side or with Mr President when a bill is presented. But the converse is the same here: It is the President who is initiating a move: I want to declare a state of emergency. He has to make that move. He made that clear in his speech and broadcast yesterday that I’ve made this decision and referred the matter to the National Assembly. It is for the National Assembly to now say we veto. That is to say, we don’t give you approval. And since the National Assembly is still in session, we expect that within 48 hours, something will come out for it.
So, whoever has any misgiving or concern, I will say, should channel it to the National Assembly to say, don’t give the required two-third approval. Otherwise, we should all, like I said, continue to put up our patriotism cap.
When Mr. President was in the opposition, particularly in 2014, he criticised the declaration of state of emergency by then President Goodluck Jonathan on three states for elections to take place due to security emergencies. What has changed? Did the President explain to you why his position has changed on declaring the state of emergency and suspending an elected governor, his deputy and the entire legislature of the state?
About what happened during President Jonathan’s period. Don’t forget, like I said, every matter depends on the peculiar facts and circumstances of the case. You can declare an emergency in a variety of ways. It is like a man who is suffering from a disease, they say oh it’s cancerous, they say, oh, I hope it has not spread to so-so area, then you now excise the portion affected. I think that was what happened during President Jonathan’s period. If it’s about the COVID period, it has its own, Boko Haram has its own. Boko Haram was located or confined to a particular area. The governor then said please come to our aid. But the governor who is at the centre of it here has not made any such request and it would have been grossly irresponsible for Mr President to fold his arms. So, the situation in the era of former President Goodluck Jonathan is different from what we have here. What we have here is everybody is involved. You can exercise your rights but don’t forget, there are always lines, you don’t cross them, if you cross them, then you also suffer the consequences.
With the state of emergency, who is going to reconcile them?
The people themselves, now that this situation has arisen, I believe, will call themselves to order. The President has intervened, 1,2,3, times without any result, and he alluded to this in his broadcast, that he had done his own. Well-meaning Nigerians have done their own to no avail, and that was why he had to come out and make the decision that he took yesterday. So, the people are left to allow good sense to prevail, so it is left to them to decide what they want, whether they want reconciliation or a continuation of the ugly situation.
Are we going to see FCT Minister playing a role in this reconciliation journey?
That will be an affair of the people of Rivers State, if they want. They can call him. If he likes, he can call them. But I assure you that with this situation, a platform has been created for them to come together in the interest of the good people of Rivers State who have voted to have dividends of democracy.
The NBA argued that the political crisis in Rivers State does not justify the emergency rule. What’s your reaction to that nation?
When you talk of a state of emergency, it is an extraordinary situation, demanding the suspension or putting in abeyance the normal situation that would have been. Normally you allow the legislature, the executive and the judiciary to continue to function. But like I said, section 305 envisaged that there might be a situation in which extraordinary matters or events will come up which will require suspending the normal rights or privileges of those who are involved, and that is why the justification for suspension of the people involved comes in.
I don’t see how you would have spared the governor and the legislature, they are both involved. Things are not working in Rivers. So, the justification is those who brought this to be, who caused this must be shown in clear terms that you don’t do it and get away with it. There must be consequences for our action. If section 305 were to be absent, then you can be talking of what justification do you have. But section 305 clearly spells out conditions in which the government, the President, will come out and say, I am suspending the normal operation of things. In times of war between Nigeria and another country, God forbid, that can come in. In other situations, yes, and you expect the governor to make supplication to Mr President, to say the situation I have in my state is such that we need you to come in, and that was why the President alluded to this in his broadcast. He said, the governor had failed to make the request, and I, as the President, have assessed the situation. I believe that a state of emergency should come in. A state of emergency presupposes the suspension of ordinary rights and privileges that you enjoy.
Will the seized funds be released to the Rivers State Sole Administrator?
An extraordinary situation has arisen in Rivers State. When the administrator comes, he may request for these funds, and to me, it will be in order for the release of that fund, because the extraordinary situation has brought them out of the normal situation of things.
Former Secretary General of Ohanaeze Ndigbo, Uche Okwukwu, speaks on the controversy over the identity of Ikwerre people in Rivers State and whether they belong to the Igbo tribe, among other related issues
What do you make of the disagreement between the President General of Ohanaeze Ndigbo, Chief Emmanuel Iwuanyanwu, and the President of Iwhnurohna Progressive Organisation, Dr Okachikwu Dibia?
As an Ikwerre man, I know we have the Ogbako Ikwerre; we have the Ikwerre Development Organisation, IDO. So, we don’t have anything called Iwhnurohna Progressive Organisation or IPO. So, the young man (Dibia) wanted to score a point by issuing a statement to challenge Chief Emmanuel Iwuanyanwu. I wish him good luck. That is what I will say in that regard.
But the man is the President of IwhnurohnaProgressive Organisation.
You are a journalist; have you heard about that name before? He needs to be asked some questions. First and foremost, his name is Dibia; that is what he said, and he wrote a book published in 2011, which I have. In that book, he said there was pressure on him to change his surname, but (he said) he did not change it because he allowed it to remain as an Igbo relic. But the truth is that he is an Igbo man; his DNA and his blood are Igbo. I have said time without number that the Ikwerre are Igbo, and they have at different fora from the Henry Willink’s Commission asserted that they are Igbo.
Ikwerre land is Igbo land. The man (Dibia) wanted to become popular by issuing a statement challenging Iwuanyanwu. For example, if Ango Abdullahi says something, and somebody wants to reply to him from Igbo land or Yoruba land, it should be a known name. So, who is this person, and what organisation does he represent?
But Dibia, who is an Ikwerre man, is saying that the Ikwerre are not Igbo. How will you respond to his claim?
I want to be recorded very well. The Ikwerre people are Igbo. If you say something that is not predicated on fact, either circumstantial or real, it is neither here nor there. The Portuguese got to Ikwerre land in 1400AD. Now, go and look at ‘People from Southern Nigeria’ by Amaury Talbot, Volume 1, Page 238. The Portuguese got to Isiokpo which is the headquarters of Ikwerre Local Government Area today; they got to Amaafa, which was the name Emuoha was answering. They recorded that people were here with these names.
Now, the Ikwerre people claimed that they left Benin under the reign of Oba Ewuare, and Oba Ewuare came to power in the Benin Kingdom in 1430 AD. That was after the Portuguese had visited Ikwerre land in 1400. Assuming without conceding that the Ikwerre people came from Benin, it then means that the Ikwerre people who came from Benin met people here (Ikwerre land). The people had been here when the Portuguese came.
Again, the Oba of Benin wrote a book titled, ‘Yes, my obedient servant’. The Oba of Benin I am referring to is Omo N’Oba Akpolokpolo, Oba Erediauwa. He (Oba Erediauwa) served as an Assistant District Commissioner in Ahoada Division (in today’s Rivers State) between 1954 and 1965. In his book titled, ‘Remain, sir, your obedient servant’, published in 2004, Omo N’Oba Erediauwa Akpolokpolo wrote it.
He (Erediuwa) said that the Ikwerre and the Etche were typical Igbo. Also, at the Henry Willink’s Commission in 1957, the Ikwerre presented their position through their leaders that from Port Harcourt to Onitsha was Igbo land, and when Henry Willink published his report in April 1958, he made it very clear that the Ikwerre were Igbo. He went to the point of stating in black and white that Port Harcourt was an Igbo town. It is there in black and white.
Now, let us go to human beings. Illustrious Ikwerre sons, more prominent than Dibia, had stated clearly that they were Igbo. Chibuike Amaechi, who is the former governor of Rivers State, former speaker of the House of Assembly, Rivers State, and first Nigerian Minister of Transportation, says he is an Igbo man.
The question I ask is, why are people not reporting it? Now, they are giving front-page headlines to Dibia. The first Ikwerre principal of any college; Saint John’s College, Diobu, first provost of the Rivers College of Education, now Ignatius Ajuru University, and first Ikwerre minister, Chief Emmanuel Aguma, said he was an Igbo man. The First Ikwerre poet, Okogbule Wonodi, who was a one-time registrar of the University of Port Harcourt, said he was an Igbo man.
The first Ikwerre senator, first Ikwerre to obtain a PhD, first Ikwerre commissioner, and first Ikwerre member of the Constituent Assembly, Constitution Conference, 1975 and 1977, Dr Obi Wali, said he was an Igbo man. The question I will ask Dibia is; ‘why do you say you are not an Igbo man?’
What do you think may have made him say the Ikwerre are not Igbo people?
Well, he knows what made him to say so. I don’t know. He (Dibia) wrote a book titled, ‘The Challenge of Ikwerre Development in Nigeria’, published in 2011. From Page 146 to 147 of that book, this is Dibia talking; he said, ‘Ikwerre names that are Igbo have remained unchanged because they were left as part of Ikwerre historical relics. They have no other meaning than that. For example, my name, Dibia, does not in any way assist in defining my personality despite the pressure to change it. I had decided to retain it to remember what Ikwerre people passed through in the past, representing the experiences needed to rebuild Ikwerre.’
Now, the question you will ask him is why he has not changed his name. Dibia means in Igbo land, a knowledgeable person and a healer. A professor can be called Dibia of History, Dibia of Law, Dibia of Journalism, or a healer. So, let him change his name, because he has no other names to answer. We are not Iwhnurohna people; we are Ikwerre people. He used the word ‘Iwhnurohna’. Let the people be bold to change all their organisations’ names from Ikwerre to Iwhnurohna, and they will lose their bearing and relevance.
Why did you say so?
Of course, if you change your surname today, you will lose your track. Why is it that the Afro-Americans are still insisting that they are Africans? Why are they not saying that they are Spanish? Why are they not saying that they are Germans or British? Why are they still insisting that they are Africans? Blacks and Afro-Americans have their root in Africa. This is because it is the identity that defines their mission and purpose and that they are blacks and Africans.
The Ikwerre are Igbo, and from time immemorial, the Ikwerre have remained in Ohanaeze. From 1939, the Ikwerre were members of the Igbo State Union which existed from 1939 to 1966 when the military proscribed it. Since the formation of the Ohanaeze Ndigbo in 1976 with Akanu Ibiam as President General and Jerome Udorji as first Secretary General, the Ikwerre were members of Ohanaeze.
I have served as Secretary General of Ohanaeze Ndigbo; many prominent sons and daughters of Ikwerre have served as Ohanaeze members. Chibudom Nwuche, former Deputy Speaker of the House of Representatives from Ekpeye is a member of the Board of Trustees of Ohanaeze as I am talking to you. His father, the late C.C Nwuche, once served as the chairman of Ohanaeze’s Elders’ Council. The late Senator Francis Ellah of Ogba, the most outstanding Ogba man to live on earth, was a senator; he was a district commissioner, he was the registrar of the Rivers State University at a time, he was Secretary to the Government, he was a minister, and remained Ohanaeze till he died.
So, I don’t know where the likes of Dibia are coming from. If he knows the people that sent him on an errand, he should tell them that the Igbo will not surrender Ikwerre to anyone or tribe; and I want to be recorded. Any attempt to remove Ikwerre land from the Igbo will be resisted. No nation in modern history will want his side to be shrunk. That is the whole crisis in Kremia and Ukraine. Russia said you cannot remove Russians from us.
Why do you think Ikwerre land is important to the Igbo?
No nation will want itself to be cut off from the sea. Ikwerre land is the tongue of the Igbo nation to the sea. The Ohanaeze President General (Emmanuel Iwuanyanwu) is coming to Rivers State in January 2025, because constitutionally, it is the turn of River State (to produce the next president general). So, the likes of Dibia are on a mission to undermine the Ikwerre in Ohanaeze. He should tell those who sent him that they have failed because some of us are still alive.
Some have said that the reason why some Ikwerre people are claiming that they are not part of Igbo and Igbo land is because of an alleged expansionist tendency of Igbo people. How will you react to this?
Who is expanding to where? Under the constitution, where are you expanding to? Nigeria is an indivisible and indissoluble country under Section 2 of the Constitution. Local governments have been created, and states have been created. Nobody from Ebonyi State will rule Enugu State; nobody from River State will rule Delta State. The clannish nature of Nigeria is so high that you cannot even be a councillor outside your village. Even in Yoruba land, you cannot come from Oyo State and be a councillor in Osun State.
So, I don’t know who is expanding to where. Is anybody controlling a local government except the chairman who is from there? Rivers State was created in 1967, almost 60 years ago. So, the Igbo came back to Rivers State after the war as non-Rivers indigenes and struggled for survival. Rivers people are in Lagos State as non-Lagosians struggling for survival. Anywhere you find yourself in Nigeria, you struggle for survival as a non-indigene. You battle; if you go to the university, you pay different school fees from the ones those from the state pay.
So, which expansionist tendency are these people talking about? If you go anywhere, you buy land with your money; nobody will dash you land. You are in Lagos today, if you have money to buy land, you buy from the natives. The Lagosians go to Ogun State and buy land. Even the Ijebu people buy land in Ijebu. Tell those saying this to tell us where we are expanding to. It is just a case of calling a dog a bad name to kill it. Tell the person that it is not true.
Ohanaeze Ndigbo will likely have a new president general next year and it is said that the position will go to Rivers State. How ready are your people to take this position?
That is the same question they ask when it comes to politics. What is the qualification to become a President of the country? Is it not a School Cert? (Umaru Musa) Yar’Adua was the first Nigerian President that went through the university. So, didn’t those who ruled before him do well? The Igbo-speaking people in Rivers State; the Ogba, the Ekpeye, the Ndoni, Ikwerre, Etche, Obigbo; don’t they have people? Is Amaechi not an Ikwerre man? He has said he is Igbo.
Are you saying a man, who has run presidential primary cannot be Ohanaeze’s president general? Are you saying that Chibudom Nwuche, who was deputy speaker of the House of Representatives, is not qualified to be Ohanaeze president general? Are you saying I am not qualified as a lawyer to become president general of Ohanaeze? I have also served as secretary general. Are the qualifications of the president general and secretary general of Ohanaeze different? It is like saying (Prof Yemi) Osinbajo cannot be President, even when he has been Vice President.
All those things are cheap blackmail. The Rivers people are very prepared. We are very prepared. Constitutionally, it is only people from Rivers State who can contest the position of the next president general of Ohanaeze. It is zoned to Rivers State, and after Rivers State, it will go to Abia State.
What is your advice to those who may unwittingly try to distort history over the current controversy on the identity of the Ikwerre people?
If something is not your name, you change your name. For example, my name is Uche Okwukwu. If I find out that it is not my name, I change it. Go to court, do an affidavit, and publish it in a newspaper. So, some Ikwerre who are saying Ikwerre are not Igbo should change their names.
Some have also said that language is not enough to determine where a person comes from.
Dibia is saying that he is retaining his name as an Igbo relic. Now, you are saying that a name is not important.
No, some people said, not me.
Let me quote what Oliver Wendell said in 1866 about language. ‘Every language is a temple in which the soul of those who speak it is enshrined. Language is by its very nature communal. It expresses never the exact thing, but a compromise that is common to me, you, and everybody.’ Now, language is very important. That is why the Yoruba of Kogi, Kwara, and Edo states are still saying they are Yoruba. This is because of language and name. If you say the Igbo should change their names. How? How can that kind of influence be there that the person does not retain anyone?
It is important I also give you this source; the famous Benin historian, Julius Egharevba, wrote a book titled, ‘Short History of Benin’. In that book, he said that the earliest migration of people out of Benin was in 1440, by which time the Portuguese had already visited Ikwerre and met the Ikwerre people. Remember that the Portuguese were here by 1400. So, I don’t know where they are getting their facts from. You must be armed with history to make a statement; you don’t just say things, and when they bring you out on national television, you can’t defend it.
Igbo women are said to always tie two wrappers and that is also one of the ways a person can determine who an Igbo woman is. How will you react to this claim?
These days, globalisation has made people open their noses, open ears in five places. Some almost go naked, which the government is fighting in all higher institutions. I know that Ikwerre women tie two wrappers. You must visit Ikwerre with your camera and take snapshots. We wrestle like Igbo and our women tie two wrappers.
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